Forum:Human-Elite Hybrid biological plausibility
queens. I'm not sure this deserves a non-canon friendly template, but the Human-Elite Hybrid article does seem like a biological oddity. While a hybrid between two species is not completely out of the question (think mules etc.), it does seem odd that Human-Elite Hybrids are able to reproduce, considering that most known hybrid (i.e mules and most ligers) are sterile. Then there is the distinct possibilty that human and Elite uhh.. reproductive organs are well... incompatable. Finally, one wonders what human in their right mind would have sex with an Elite, or, for that matter, what Elite in their right mind would have sex with a human. O_O.... What?! Well, the Elites may think that we are very... "desireable"... THIS IS AWKWARD. -- Your Worst Nightmare 03:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC) In all honesty, Hybrids are, biologically, impossible. It would be like trying to breed with a komodo dragon. you wouldn't get very far with it. However Due to 'hybrids' being such a staple of science fiction, I'm none flussed about it. --Ajax 013 09:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC) I don't think it would be possible to create such offspring "the natural way", but, I think it would be possible to inject Elite DNA into Humans or Human DNA into Elites, so that it might enhance some traits, like a human would maybe run faster or become stronger by Elite DNA. Cheers, Biologt 101 here: Chances are, Elites don't even have a similar DNA structure to us. Chances are, its HIGHLY uncompatible. Injecting DNa into somebody wouldn't do much apart from starting a reaction from white blood cells. However, injecting them in a virus to forcibly put the DNA into a cell allows them to code new protiens. Chances are that either wouldn't make any of their traits different but just mess them up horomonal wise. There is a chance the protien coded could affect muscle and consequently make them stronger. Maybe ask RR for more help with this. To get any kind of 'genetic traits' you would have to have your cells divid into those of a Sangheili's, of course this would require you to kill off and replace your own cells, so for added strength you'd have to kill off you muscle cells then replace them with sangheili muscle cells. Of course, there may already be a species that does this, who knows? ;] --Ajax 013 12:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC) :*wrong*, Ajax. :P Injecting DNA into the bloodstream would have no effect--incubating cells in vitro in DNA has no effect; you need a transfection strategy; chemical transfection, viral transduction, electroporation, etc...for the POLAR DNA to transverse a largely *nonpolar* phospholipid bilayer membrane. Although it is possible to have a humorally-mediated response against DNA (isn't an antibody reaction vs. DNA one of the pathologies of Lupus?) Regards, [[User:RelentlessRecusant|'RelentlessRecusant']] (Bureaucrat) (Talk) ( ) 21:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC) I doubt it would be possible even with gene splicing. The two species are simply too different to create a hybrid that can survive on its own. Sangheili blood is cobalt-based, while human blood is iron-based, for example. I've read over the three articles on these hybrids, and I believe that it would need to be slapped with a NonCanonFriendly template. Its implied that at least one of the hybrids was conceived naturally. Which brings us back to the beginning of the thread: why would a human and an Elite have sex with one another? I mean, honestly, that's just wrong. Plus, the Sangheili live for combat. There's an ongoing theory that the Sangheili soldiers with the curved helmets are females, though we haven't seen them after Combat Evolved. Plus, even a civilian Sangheili, those without the -ee honorific, can overpower several Marines. A Major Domo can actually take down a SPARTAN-II with a little bit of luck. It could be worse, though. The article could have said that the hybrid's parents are married. I doubt inter-species nuptials are possible. Humans divorce and annul marriages at a rather high rate. When Sangheili marry, they must be absolutely sure that they are willing to share the rest of their lives with their spouses, as they marry for life. Sangheili are a very honor-bound society, and, so far, they have demonstrated similar morals as humans. If that is so, then the Sangheili will probably marry the human to prevent a child to be born out of wedlock. If they can't marry, and this is assuming this is a human female-Sangheili male pairing, because the Sangheili has a sword, then why would the Elite have sex with a human in the first place when there are so many more desireable females of the same species out there? I doubt the UNSC or the Covenant brew anything that strong. PS: Did anyone see the scientific name for the hybrids? My lungs just about imploded. The Sangheili do have a proper scientific name, y'know (Macto cognatus, or "honorable kinsmen," for the trivia collectors out there).Fire Team Bravo 00:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC) Yeah, well, um, yeah..... that's just.... yeah. --MCPO James DavisLOMI HQI here your cries 15:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC) :Homo cognatus or Macto Sapiens? :P -- Your Worst Nightmare 19:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC) Macto Sapiens makes a little more sense, I think. It would translate into "honorable men." Homo Cognatus, translates into "Men Kinsmen," which makes little, if any, sense. Really, it would probably have a name unlike either of the others. --MCPO James DavisLOMI HQI here your cries 15:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC) Well, in the fourth Alien movie, they make a xenomorph/human hybrid clone thing. As for why a Sangheili would find a human desirable, anyone who has spent time on an uncensored fiction site knows that there's a lot of humans out there with some pretty strange fetishes - why not Sangheili? Although, I'd expect such behavior to come more from the Jiralhanae. --Dragonclaws(talk) 12:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC) :Yeah, but those are the same guys that think dogs are hot. And Brutes?! O_o -- Your Worst Nightmare 13:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC) To ansrew the question about how the relationship begins; Special Agent "L" finds both Shangeili and Kig-Yar females rather attractive. "L" and Ses embrace eachother before going into the proto-ring flood hive. Although, as far as I think, we should wait for Bungie to explain Elite anatomy and relationships before getting to far into this.Logmon 01:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC) You know the "Xenomorph" is the perfect organism. It can bond its DNA with any creature. As for the Human-Elite Hybrid, it would probably not happen. But in the aspect of sci-fi, it could depend on the hosting race. I don't think a human female could support such a creature by birth, but I don't know about an Elite female either...--Kebath 'Holoree 02:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC) This wouldn't work because both species DNA is too different. Maybe Gorillas and Humans because they are very simular, although that would be discussting! Btu they are different and so it's impossible from where i'm sitting! Got to disagree with you, Kebath (not the overall argument, just the Alien comment). You see, Xenomorphs are wonderous creatures, but they have a severe flaw in their life cycle. You see, the life begins with the facehugger; but those only hatch from eggs laid by QUEENS. Yes, Praetorians can turn into queens in the absence of one, but when there are just normal aliens lying around, they have no method of reproduction. The Flood are, actually, far more superior in all aspects. Spores are also more easily passed on than a facehugger's embryo >.>. --117649AnnihilativeRepentance 03:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC) :Well, the original Alien critter at least was able to turn human bodies into incubators for facehuggers, as you can see in the director's cut. They kind of tweaked the design in the sequels, though. --Dragonclaws(talk) 06:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC) I saw that kind of stuff on Alien Vs Predator, it was amazing. You are kind of right though; they have no real purpose as they don't reproduce but they're really like bees: One queen makes all the babies and then all the other bees either look after the new babies and the others are drones who protect the queen. I'm guessing that this social layout is simular to the Drones from the Halo series. But still this elite and human thing is out of wack and neither faction would publically embark on such an experiment, let alone let the offspring live and grow up. I'm sorry but if my unrealism thing goes ahead then the article (and it's characters) are gettign the template! Cya: Time to hurl in my long repeated and unexpected opinion on this matter: Let Human-elite Hybrids in. Hybrids are such a staple of science fiction, its sort of unbearable not to have them, besides, one of the best characters on this site is a Hybrid. I'm not saying who so Parkster can tag it up >.> *Okay, no. This is ridiculous. One look at an Elite's anatomy (on the outside) shows that it's a complete impossibility for them to breed with humans. I don't care if hybrids are a staple of science fiction, they certainly aren't a staple of Halo science fiction. Have the users change their characters if they are hybrids, because hybrids are most definitely NCF! Geez, it's nasty just thinking about that... Regards, SPARTAN-091 |Admin| (HC)Guardian 12:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC) Personally, I don't believe in the Human-Elite hybrid as it's stated, where an Elite and Human mate. Now, if it was some genetic experiment, two-thumbs up. And Ajax......<.< >.>....... is the good character who I think it is? --MCPO James DavisLOMI HQI hear your cries 21:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC) To get a hyrbid, couldn't you just get the "stuff" out of a Human and inject it into an Elite and not go through the whole mating process? -- The State(Our Decrees and Law)( ) 13:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC) I'm not sure it could work that simply. --MCPO James DavisLOMI HQI hear your cries 14:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Holy Shiva!!! They don't actually mate! They would be test tube experiments. Now i've thought this through: It's most likely that a secret company would do this and away from the public (excuse me if i've already stated this!). Both covenant and UNSC would ensure that all experiments were either kept cryogenically or terminated at pre-birth stages. This may sound nasty but one or two lives are worth taking for an experiment, which could enhace both species knowledge of each other and themselves. However one test tube escapes and a hybrid is born and lives to tell teh story, looking like a freek! Now in the modern day in rel life this stem cell stuff is happening but not hybrids just yet. However from my science lessons i have learnt that only DNA from simular species (from the same animal family), can produce a cross breed. Mules for example and Ligers (i think that's the one?). All of these are possilbe but most of them may die if the species are too far apart and nealry every single one is infertile and therefore unable to pass on a an individual species. Now i do believe that in 500 years advancement on this type of breeding could evolve to cause cross breeding, not only across animal families but to produce offspring, which are fertile. So i turn my side and agrre that this is possible. However no one in their right mind would let a hybrid exist publicly or join the army. This is the NCF and Unrealistic part. If they were accidentally left to grow up by someone stealing one, then fine. So it is plausable but the way it's been created is unrealistic. Yuo really need to change the articles to meet factual science and fictional realism. If not then i may have to NCF it and when the unrealism thing goes official (if it does, that is!) then it will have that too. I'm sorry but i'm only trying to make this site better. That is all (and a lot): Um... The only reason that ligers and mules are able to live naturally, is because most animals on Earth have the same reproductive system. Science accepts it because they believe in evolution. Now, unless the Elites have the same reproductive system, (doubt it) laboratory tests I guess could be the only way to do it.--Kebath 'Holoree 18:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC) A biology-based vantage point Dear all, From my training as a biology student; "bestiality", the creation of hybrids, is specifically selected against during fertilization; the cortical reaction between the egg and sperm during fertilization specifically selects for human sperm, and prevents fertilization by necessitating a binding of the sperm with the human sperm receptor before its penetration of the surrounding membranes and nuclear uptake by the egg. The amalgamation of two genetic libraries would certainly be bizzare. However, developmental pathways are *highly* conserved; looking at the domains of developmental DNA transcription factors, DNA-binding domains are almost exactly copied in both eukaryotes and prokaryotes; to foster life, there is a very fine margin for error. It is possible that humans and Covenant species share similar developmental pathways, so *assuming* one could circumvent the egg-sperm cortical selectivity with electrical fusion of the two cells...but development is still unlikely past the cellular stage. There would be numerous conflicting developmental programmes being activated in the totipotent stem cells, and it is unlikely that sufficient differential pathways would be appropriately activated to differentiate and generate pluripotent stem cells; and without pluripotency, an embryo can not develop...even without a trophoectoderm, development is impossible (remember Cdx2-/- deficiency). Furthermore, even similar eukaryotic species, like humans and mice and rats; we even have extremely different developmental pathways; there are severe differences in human and mouse Oct-3/4, a crucial pluripotency and developmental regulator...and rats even have a different strategy to formulate pluripotency... ...in light of these brief considerations, it is quite unlikely that a hybrid could be plausibly formed... Warm regards, [[User:RelentlessRecusant|'RelentlessRecusant']] (Bureaucrat) (Talk) ( ) 20:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC) :Whatever RR just said (Confusing stuff), I agree with him. The summary of his explanation should clear all of this... - H107SubtleTank 21:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC) can i get that in english please... >.< haha jk Hollywood Yeah i kind of understood that! However in the future it might be done. But overall it is unlikely. So i think we need a vote: It stays or goes. CVan we get sdmin concent first. Thanks: So In short...it wouldn't work.-- The State(Our Decrees and Law)( ) 13:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC) Yes, he's saying that humans and Elites "mating" would be impossible in the first place, and even a genetic one would be difficult without much more advanced sciences. --MCPO James DavisLOMI HQI hear your cries 14:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC) Wait a minute! Why vote this is unrealistic and most probably NCF for the Human's stage of scientific knowledge. So again, what we doing admins? Well, NCF wouldn't play much into this role. Unrealism however, is more suitable for the Human-Elite Hybrid article. So, I guess just aply unrealism on those articles... - H107SubtleTank 16:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC) Yeah the unrealism help page is goign to be made, most posibly this weekend, but i can't keep any promises! Well, I have a group of Hybrid Supersoilders I'm setting up. It took them almosttwenty years to succesfully create the first one, and the only managed to make fifty. Would that work?Logmon 18:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC) I really don't think hybrids are necessary. Elites have shown themselves to already be superior to Humans in most, if not all ways. What's the point of mixing a perfectly good thing with something weaker and stupider? --117649AnnihilativeRepentance 05:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC) To improve that weaker and stupider thing to be better? I'm not sure how hybrids work though so that's all i shall say.112 06:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC) Don't, make realistic fanon mate. Trust me it will be better worth making something decent and unflamable!!! If you make the Elite hybrid then i'm just going to tag it with unrealism and possibly NCF. Sorry that's how we role! Some things stopping a human from mating with an Elite (from my Zoology 1114 textbook) *'Behavioral Isolation:' Sangheilli and Human mating behavior may be so different, that there is no way a human could mate with a Sangheili. *'Mechanical Isolation:' Elite and Human reproductive organs may be incompatible. *'Gametic Isolation:' The gametes (sperm and egg) of humans and Sangheili would almost certainly be incapable of producing a zygote, Sangheili may not even have DNA, might be other nucleic acid. :SPARTAN-119, that was a lovely summary. =] That covered most of my points, BTW. Mechanical isolation wouldn't be a problem if there were compatible germline cells, though--in the laboratory, we do more invasive procedures than that. Regards, RelentlessRecusant Well the behavioral stuff is irrelivant, but still very true, because they won't actually have intercourse! How many times do i have to say: it will be done by a sperm doner and an egg, which is taken via a needle or something. Then the reproductive stuff would happen in a test tube or incubator. But yeah for the rest it wouldn't work. So i think it's fair to say that this is unpossible. Whoever made it can get it changed or it will be deleted. Sorry to be so blunt but that's the bottom line really. All is clear no though: Well with the ROMANs, the scientists altered the coding so the egg and sperm thought they went together...Logmon 16:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC) Do you know how hard it is to alter the genetic coding of something like an Elite? We don't even fully understand their biology, let alone have a comprehensive understanding of their sexual reproductive habits and DNA makeup. Tampering with it without really knowing it well might as well just cause some severely mutated freak. --117649AnnihilativeRepentance 01:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC) It wouldn't even live to be a circus freak! Look Logman, despite your enthusiasm this isn't going to work. Notone bit really. I'm sorry but just give up and make it into an illegal or ligit batch of Spartans with super genetic argumentations. That's the closest realistic and canon friendly thing you're going to find. Sorry: A hybrid between a human and elite is extremely unlikely. Many people have assumed that the process of mating alone would be impossible, but I assume that copulation could be achieved. At least on Earth, all bipedal and most quadrupedal organisms do have the reproductive organs which we are most familiar with. While elites do not come from Earth they share many evolutionary traits that we do, like a blood system which transfers oxygen through their body evident through their breathing. Like many animals on Earth, I believe it’s reasonable to suggest that the elites have internal reproductive organs; meaning a flap of skin, or a sheath, covering the penis or penis like organ of the male elite. It could also be housed behind a genital slit found in many aquatic mammalian species. A problem with this hypothesis is the idea of mechanical isolation: the parts may simply not fit. Based on the size of elite's compared to humans, it may be possible that copulation could be somewhat comfortable to achieve, but it's also likley that the shape of the elite's penis may not be shaped correctly to be compatable with a human female. On the other end I belive it's plausable to assume that a human male would be compatable with an elite female. The reason a hybrid could not be conceived is simply that the sperm (assuming this is what the elite transfers) and egg (also assuming this is what the female elite has) are not compatible, and the egg could probably not divide if fertilization could even take place (sperm entering the egg). Of course there are moral reasons why a human and elite shouldn’t enter into a sexual relationship. I’ll simply point out that while the majority of us suggest this is wrong, there are people who would be interested, and seeing as elites can have their own personalities and opinions some of them, too, may be interested in a sexual relationship with a human. - Anon